#3 – Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil

#3 – Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil

February 5th, 2024

Announcer:           Welcome to the LIDAR Magazine Podcast, bringing measurement, positioning and imaging technologies to light. This event was made possible thanks to the generous support of rapidlasso, producer of the LAStools software suite.

Stewart Walker:          Welcome to the LIDAR Magazine podcasts. My name is Stewart Walker and I’m the Managing Editor of LIDAR Magazine. This is the third podcast in the series and I feel privileged to have been asked to host them.

My guest today is Monsieur Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil. He’s President and Chief Executive of mdGroup Germany GmbH. Now, the name of that higher-level company may not be immediately recognized, but many listeners will know its main components: one is Microdrones which has marketed its products in the US for quite some time and the other is GeoCue, which is very well-known to US listeners.

So, Vivien is French, he was educated in France, he lives in Switzerland, he’s an entrepreneur, he’s set up many companies and he’s involved in enterprises in many countries. So, as I say, he’s of special interest to LIDAR Magazine because Microdrones’ parent company, mdGroup, acquired GeoCue Group, Inc. in January 2022.

A large portion of our readership is in North America where GeoCue is well-known. Its cofounder and former CEO, Lewis Graham, is one of the best-known and popular figures in US lidar and for many years he provided a regular column to LIDAR Magazine entitled “Random Points” and brimming with original thought and penetrating insights.

So, Vivien, thank you very much, indeed, for finding the time to talk to us. I know it’s early evening with you in France, so I’ll try to move things along as expeditiously as possible.

You’ve accomplished a tremendous amount in your career and I’ve read a lot about you. Your early interest in aviation spurred by a visit to the Paris air show at Le Bourget with your father was obviously a factor.

But I think it would be better if you could tell us in your own words about your early life, your education and the path that led you to be President and Chief Executive of mdGroup. And in that you could also tell us about the companies you founded and the many for which you serve as a director.

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Hello, Stewart. Thank you for having me and this introduction. I’ll start with the background that you asked. So, early on I was interested in air space and I was convinced that the drone industry will become the major thing.

I was starting to develop remote control airplanes and rockets when I was still at high school and I started to work for a target company, designing targets to train Air Force pilots in France in 1997.

So, I saw the potential of having remote drones and the first learning I got was that drones are basically remote sensors and what really matters is the data that you can get out of it.

So, I worked in this industry, many in defense application for many years; I worked for companies like EADS, (NATCO Airbus) or (Suffren) in France. So, drones in military applications when I was waiting for the commercial markets, the technology and also the regulation to be in place just to form my own company.

I did it in North America; actually I moved with my family to the US because I thought it was the right market and the idea was to bring the expertise I got in Europe and find a company in North America, which I did beginning of 2013.

And I started by providing services using drones to collect data; actually it was in Canada that we had our first customer. We were imaging a stockpile of wood chips and measuring in 3D the volume of stockpiles for the paper industry in Canada.

So, we were providing services, building the reports, but the algorithm that was available at that time were not really adapted so we were looking at partnering with our manufacturer to develop our own sensor to install on the drones and also to develop our processing software to make sure that we have the right deliverable at the end.

And we partnered with Microdrones. It was one of the best (inaudible) manufacturer at the time, so I started to produce and sell Microdrones in North America and I was developing payloads to install under the drone and to process the data.

Then we decided to further expand the company, we merged and we decided in 2016 to focus on survey. So, being sure that we developed the complete solution. So, the drone, the sensor, the processing workflow and the mission preparation to make sure that the surveyor has the complete tool to do the mission from designing the area, defining the resolution, the accuracy he wants to the one full contour map that he wants at the end.

And we decided over the years to really develop or invest in the lidar technology. We had two technologies at the time: we had photogrammetry and lidar, but our main focus was in lidar. So, we released our first payload, I think it was in 2015 and we have developed it over the years.

And we decided at the end of 2021 to acquire GeoCue because it was a really good addition to our group. One of the key pieces was the LPC360 software. We wanted to have one of the reference in lidar and photogrammetry processing software developed since 2006, so it was a really good addition bringing all the tools to produce the deliverables.

So, we had that in mind and also to further expand our footprint in North America; the US was our biggest market and still is, but we wanted to grow our local presence, be able to support locally, so we have the facility in Huntsville. Being able to produce and support locally was a key factor in the decision.

So, I think now we have the perfect mix of technologies with the drones, with the payload, with the TrueView brand and the software with LP360 to make sure that we can provide the complete package to the end users.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, indeed. And at some point you set up another company, Avyon?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes, Avyon. So, like I said, I started by providing service so the company was called Flyterra, it was service provider and then when we started to produce in North America Microdrones and also we have the partnership with the French fixed-wing manufacturer called Vallair, we were promoting those products under the brand Avyon and when we decided to merge with Microdrones, we changed to Microdrones.

Stewart Walker:          And at some point there in the history you had a successful distributor arrangement with Trimble?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes. When we decided to focus on survey, we looked for partners and Trimble was the most relevant and they started to invest in the field and they were looking for partners so we decided to work together.

Their dealer network was asking for drone-based survey equipment, but they didn’t have the right technology so they were looking for partners to do that. It was a natural extension of the toolkit for the surveyors so they wanted to be able to provide the right solution.

So, we worked together in providing the right product for their customers and dealers. At that time we decided to also integrate some Trimble technology in our payloads, so the GNSS, the INU, for example, from Applanix. So, that was a win-win partnership to have the right tool for the job.

The idea behind that is we can be the best only if we focus on a specific application. If we try to do everything, we’ll be average in most of them but if we focus on one specific application, we can be the best at that. So, that’s the idea.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, that makes good sense. Well, just to finish off this historical part, very briefly, in 2018 you merged with a company called Schübeler Technologies and that one seems a little bit different from UAV lidar. What was the rationale there?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   So, I see you made some research and that’s nice; this is good. So, Schübeler, Microdrones has been founded by three people Udo Juerss which is a German who invented the modern quadcopter and the second guy was called Daniel Schübeler and Daniel was bringing the carbon fiber expertise, (inaudible) and design and the motors expertise. And the last one was (Inaudible).    So, the three of them founded Microdrones.

So, when we merged with Microdrones, Udo Juerss was still working for the company working on innovative products, long-term R&D and Daniel was a supplier of Microdrones. He was providing the frames and the motors and when I took control of Microdrones I decided that we should do a vertical integration, so integrating Schübeler into Microdrones to master all the key technology to make sure that we master completely our products and customize it to the application, all the end goals. So, that was the idea.

We keep the brands because Schübeler is one of the best in motors and fans, so (sounds like: electric-conducted) fans and we continued to keep that, so it’s still part of the group. But the biggest part of it was really to focus on the technology that we needed to produce our drones.

Stewart Walker:          As always, in the geospatial world, the situations any moment in time is the result of complex series of mergers, acquisitions, strategic alliances and so on.

But let’s come to the present. Is mdGroup privately held and, if so, can you say anything about revenues, profits, number of employees just to give us an idea of scale?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   So, we are talking about 150 people, roughly; more than $20 million in revenue.

Stewart Walker:          Wow. Okay, you have a lot of responsibility, then. {Laughter} So, what I would like to do before we go into the specifics of the products, I’d like to talk about the technology and the markets in general.

You’ve already defined the UAV lidar system of the aircraft, the lidar sensors, the cameras, the GNSS, the IMU, all tightly integrated and then software for flight planning, quality control, postprocessing, et cetera.

How do you see the technology developing? What’s your read on the current technology directions for UAV lidar?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   If you look at the trends, for – when I started we had to educate the market, talk about lidar, explaining why, how it works, why it’s an interesting alternative to photogrammetry because photogrammetry was bigger and faster, I will say, in terms of adoption.

Now it’s not the case anymore; the market is well-developed, people really understood the benefits from the lidar technology where it’s superior to the other technology. So, that was – in term of adoption, that was the first stage.

But I think now we are reaching another level with a new generation of payload and sensors coming to the market. I think lidar data has never been so available and affordable as of today.

You have more and more sensors coming from the automotive industry. That makes it really accessible and all the benefits of lidar having the fast results:  3D, working at night, seeing through vegetation. Now it takes another dimension: becoming affordable. And the other point was, is it easy to get a result?

I think one of the key differentiators now, a difference maker, I will say, is that the processing piece of the (inaudible) is key and it will become more and more important to make sure that you can extract the right value because you can have a lot of lidar data, but now you need to make sure that you have the right level of quality; you can guarantee or you can measure, validate your work, validate your deliverable, making sure that you have the right level of accuracy.

The lidar data is improving, meaning that you have more and more density, potentially more precision and accuracy but you need to make sure that you control that, you validate that. So, that’s a trend I see. And with a sensor bringing much more points over the years, you have also the size of the data that is increasing.

So, again, the piece to manage those data is more and more crucial. So, that’s the trend I see.

Stewart Walker:          I can see those too. I think you’re right. Now, you’ve said and I agree with you, the market is a mature one. Do you divide the market maybe according to segments or according to geographies in the way that you address it?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   So, yes. I will say the adoption of the market is different depending on the geography. So, I will say the US market is more advanced than the European one, for example. You have more lidar adoption in the US than in Europe. So, we have to adapt to that. I will say one or two years advance if you compare the two.

So, yes, the topology of markets is really depending on the region and it’s not the same in Brazil, in Australia or in Japan, for example. So, yes, we have the adapt the product range. They way we sell definitely it’s adapted.

Stewart Walker:          And do you see the market developing in such a way that customers will buy from more than one supplier? So, for example, do you see your LP360 software being attractive to customers who buy their hardware from somebody else, from one of your competitors?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   I hope so, yes. That’s really the idea. What we are trying to do is develop our business as business units, like LP360 it’s a business unit on its own and we try to sell LP360 on a standalone basis meaning that somebody purchasing a DJI L2, for example, should have LP360 to extract the value, to QC/QA this data and produce the deliverable at the end. (Inaudible) is called (inaudible), and so on.

So, yes, definitely I will think that anybody using lidar is somebody that we target. What we are trying to do with TrueView and Microdrones is to combine everything all together to make sure that you have – you are supported for the complete package. We will train you on the mission preparation, we train you on the processing, the sensor. But LP360 is included in everything we do.

So, for me, that’s the biggest priority and we try to promote it and we try to have more and more sensors compatible to it, integrate workflow with others. We are not a closed box for only our own hardware. I think that that should be a mistake. I think we try to have the best tool for anybody, any lidar users.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, indeed. I think it was only a few days ago that GeoCue gave a very good webinar on processing data from the DJI L2 system.

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes.

Stewart Walker:          So, that demonstrated the point.

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Stewart Walker:          Well, let’s narrow the focus a little bit and turn to the products. I see as far as the Microdrones product line is concerned, there are several UAV lidar integrated systems and you use the overall product name EasyOne and the LP360 software’s included in that. Could you maybe take us through that product line a little?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes. So, the idea beyond the EasyOne is to have an easy-to-use, complete lidar drone completely integrated. So, if you look at most of the offerings available on the market, you have big drones. It’s not that simple to deploy and use on the field, so we wanted to have something smaller, affordable that can carry a survey-grade lidar. That was really the driving for the development of these products.

Today it’s the smallest one that you have on the market with that quality. And again, the idea with Microdrones is you have mdCockpit which is the mission preparation software. So, you take the remote with the tablet and you select the area with your finger to define which area you want to map, you define the resolution that you want and automatically the flight plan will be configured, the altitude, the distance between the flight lines, everything automatically based on the result that you want at the end.

So, we really think serving (inaudible) and that was the idea with everything. So, the drone, because it knows the sensor, it can drive the autopilot and so you start the mission and also Microdrone is, again, fully integrated, think like survey.

The drone also follows the terrain making sure that we keep the distance so we have the right overlap. So, even if you have trees, you don’t follow the top of the trees, you make sure that you go through and look at the ground because that’s what you want when you do a survey job.

So, we do the flights and then you have the workflow the easiest way we could do because we know how you prepared the mission, how the flight went so then it is yours to process and make it simple.

So, that’s really the idea of Microdrones. And again, instead of having – relying on third-party components, everything is included so you are supported for the full package, you are trained on the full package.

Stewart Walker:          Let’s turn now to the GeoCue side and just a reminder for listeners that GeoCue was founded in 2003 by Lewis Graham and Jim Meadlock and Jim was a visionary who for many years was Chairman and CEO of Intergraph.

Now, GeoCue was initially a distributor of the Finnish software product Terrasolid for postprocessing lidar and then as Vivien has mentioned, in 2009 it acquired the small US company QCoherent Software, LLC and that had developed software which is now well known as LP360. That’s been developed extensively, it’s been marketed vigorously both in the US and overseas.

So, Vivien, tell us a little bit about the GeoCue acquisition. I think you’ve indicated that you were looking for something to complement Microdrones, so you were looking for a company to acquire. GeoCue wasn’t looking for you. And how difficult has it been to integrate the GeoCue operation into the overall mdGroup operation?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes, it wasn’t – any integration you have always challenges but I think this one was pretty simple because the team was – the spirit of the companies were really close and the fact that we’re focusing on the same end users on the same goal.

At Microdrones, yes, they were doing drones but for to carry lidar to do survey check-offs was helping, Microdrones was developing its own platform to process what I call the (inaudible).

So, they were already working on aligning the strips, denoising the point cloud, do some automatic run classification. So, I think it was easier. It wasn’t really the outward manufacture of an aircraft with a software company. I think we were talking about the same customers and the same products at the end, the “what” we want to deliver.

And I think the biggest thing was also that we were looking at the best quality. What I liked was the discussion we had with (sounds like: Ledworth) is there was no compromise in making sure that you can guarantee you have the right level of accuracy and when you claim it, you can justify that’s really what we want to make. So, we were high-end focusing on the best quality.

So, overall I think it was easier and also we were really international companies, people coming from different backgrounds, different nationalities. So, yes, overall I must say it wasn’t easy at the beginning. Like you say, I’m French and the company was based in Alabama, so we were expecting to see something (inaudible), but at the end we found really high-level engineers and really skilled technical guys looking for the best. So, it worked out.

Stewart Walker:          I think that’s a very good way of putting it. Would you like to say a few words about the new CEO of GeoCue, Francois Darmayan?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes. So, Francois Darmayan in French. So, we know each other for a long time. We were in high school together when we were students, so we are both engineers. And when we were students we built an airplane, the two of us in France during our spare time and it was our first company together. It was called VF Technologies for Vivien and Francois, so the goal was to develop the aircraft and operate it for school, pilot schools.

Just after Francois finished his engineer school, he moved to the US and worked for the mining industry in North America and when I moved to the US to found the company, I tried to have him back, I will say, or ask him to join me.

So, it took a little time to grow the company, but at the end we reached that goal to work again together. I think we are a really strong team, we complement each other pretty well and it wasn’t easy to take the role because Lewis, like you said, is the founder and the father of everything we got from GeoCue and it wasn’t easy to take over the role, but I think he did great and the success of GeoCue is also based on him now.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, indeed. I think we all remember Lewis very fondly. So, obviously some of the original parts of Microdrones and GeoCue are still there, but big, exciting changes are taking place. You’ve announced, for example, that you already support US customers out of Alabama and that you’re going to move manufacturing and quite a bit of your R&D to the GeoCue facility in 2024.

And I’ve read your press releases about this and it’s also connected to this issue of NDAA compliance which requires that products that are going to be purchased by the US Department of Defense are not allowed to contain certain components made by certain companies.

So, anyway, you’re moving a lot of activities to Huntsville. Are you excited about that?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Oh, yes. I’m really excited about that and the reason I’m excited is I know the team already; we have a fascinating team there that works already so we are not starting from scratch because moving a factory it’s always challenging. But on this one I’m pretty confident.

And like you said, I think the “made in America” is becoming more and more important, so it was the natural move for us. Again, having the R&D team and the production team co-located, being able to exchange between the different teams is added value for us. For me that’s the next move that we have to do and I’m pretty excited and confident that it will be a success.

Stewart Walker:          Well, maybe a codicil to that, it’s only five years since you made a big expansion to the Microdrones factory in Siegen in Germany. So, is that affected by this move of some of your capabilities to Huntsville?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes, of course it will be impacted because we will stop producing the drone in Siegen which was the historic facility, but we keep some R&D people in Germany. We offered some of the team members to move to the US; some of them did but some others wanted to stay with their family in Germany. But, yes, we are reducing the team, at least the production team in Siegen because I don’t think it makes sense to duplicate two production lines.

Something also to drive the decision, and I don’t know if you have this kind of visibility, but the regulation for drones is much more difficult in Europe than in the US. When I started, Europe was ahead compared to the US but now it’s the opposite because of the European Union regulation it has become much more complicated to operate drones. So, for me it was the right decision.

I think the US is more business-friendly, at least to our drones, than in Europe. And I’ve read a couple of weeks ago that, for example, Winthrop, which is a Swiss manufacturer, is doing the same. They will stop producing in Switzerland; they will do it only in the US.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, I can understand the logic. Thank you for explaining that. So, let’s go in a little deeper. GeoCue has, over the years, expanded it’s TrueView product line out to quite a number of models with different lidar sensors; some have got two cameras pointing slightly off nadir in order to optimize the colorization of the lidar point cloud and some have got three cameras.

So, recently you’ve added the TrueView 625, the 680 and 680LR. Would you like to say something about these and the parts of the market that they’re being built for?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Again, I think you have several options available and we try to have a product range that covers the needs depending on the point velocity you are looking for, the accuracy you are looking for, the vegetation, penetration but also the range; if you want to fly higher or you want to survey a deep mine, for example, you need to have lasers, scanners, that are – that have more range. So, we have try to have a portfolio based on that.

Of course, with different price range, but, yes, to cover all the needs. So, I will say we start from midrange to the high-end so you were referring to the 600 series so it’s more the high-end part of our portfolio compared to the 400 or 500 series.

And one of the key differentiators of TrueView is having at least two or three cameras to cover the full or at least the useful filler view of the lidar at least to cover 90 or 100 degrees that we think it’s the right filler view.

So, to make sure that you cover that and you colorize your point cloud directly like this, we have added over time the nidar camera also to have a good product in terms of photogrammetry.

TrueView is really the lidar but also the light integration but also the camera so we can try to leverage both on a single payload.

Stewart Walker:          And, of course, GeoCue have also developed targets for ground control points and independent check points for accuracy.

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Exactly. I think it’s interesting. Again, we think jobs, we think what will be needed to deliver your product. And, for me, the first is be able to QA/QC so you need to have reference points.

Anybody knows the checkerboard that you have with the photogrammetry, the square black and white, but this is not developed a thing for lidar. So, we wanted to have something that makes sense for lidar. So, we started to develop our own targets. So, we developed the accuracy star adding the Z-axis into it, not only being from on the ground but also to be on the tripod, adding the 3D dimension and with the (inaudible) you can automatically dictate the center really accurately, automatically so no need to click and make the mistakes when you click.

We have also developed the (inaudible) targets to replace the checkerboard that you can throw on the ground. But again, seeable, detectable, made for lidar. So, that’s really what we do, are trying to have the good tool for a job at the end of the day.

Stewart Walker:         Now, GeoCue historically has used Trimble Applanix hardware, firmware and software for the GNSS IMU part of their systems. Do the EasyOne systems also used Trimble Applanix?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   So, today, yes. All our payload use Applanix. So you have different label and quality affecting this product. But yes, all of them use Trimble product. Yes.

Stewart Walker:          Well, going back now, coming outwards, a more general question as we start to move to a close, how widely is artificial intelligence being adopted in your products? I’m sure it’s becoming a part of LP360 for example.

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Yes. So, we have been working on that for many years. It wasn’t easy to find the right application where it’s really relevant, where it really makes the difference.

What I’m saying here is that everybody wants to claim that they do AI and have AI in their product, but really the use case that really makes a difference having the AI is not that simple or not that easy to find. And we found it on the really specific applications where we have the really good or improvement and we will talk about that in a couple of weeks so I won’t reveal the secret just yet.

But for me what we try to do is really use the technology for what is best. I will take another example: one of the things we have been working on is adding the cloud dimension to LP360.

LP360 is a well-known desktop software and I think it’s really useful to use on the computer the different coordinated screens to QA/QC your data to process it. So, we wanted to add the cloud dimension to be able to share, to start the data, to stream when you have people in different locations, but not duplicating LP360 in the cloud; trying to use the best of both worlds.

If – the cloud is better to share and store your data, but if you want to look at it and use the older tool of LP360, it’s better on your computer. So, we have developed the streaming option for it.

With this kind of mindset, we try to use the technology where it really makes a difference and to come back to the cloud and AI, now having the cloud we can add processing capability and the AI makes sense where we have – we can (inaudible) cloud power which was a little bit less attractive using the computer of the users and stopping everything it was doing, waiting for the results and the processing on his computer.

Stewart Walker:          Yes, I think you’ve given some excellent advice there and we look forward to your announcement in a couple of weeks.

So, let’s try to close by looking forward. In the short term, I presume you see a little more work required to complete the integration of GeoCue into mdGroup and then to move operations to the Huntsville area. But after that where is the mdGroup going? What are its aspirations? And on a more personal note, what’s the future for you as a successful international executive?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Good question. For us, further developing the LP360. No doubt about that. That’s really the future for us. This is where we invest the most; this is where we have the most potential. That’s the best tool but a little bit too confidential for me. So, really to have the product just known and trying just to explain all the tools that you have already available.

When I started, the goal was to add new features. With LP360, we have 23 or 25 years of development of a tool that works already and so it’s more a question of communicating and showing all the tool and the power of it. Every day I use it, I’m amazed by what it can do. And compared to what you have and you see on the market, I mean, it’s day and night.

So, for me it’s really that: just indicating in the world, showing what we have because it’s incredible.

Stewart Walker:          I’ve already mentioned the GeoCue webinars and certainly that point comes across because all of those webinars include an element which is a demonstration with the LP360 software, so the breadth of the functionality is clear.

But I was going to probe at the very end there about yourself. You plan to continue living in Switzerland but masterminding the mdGroup operations?

Vivien Hériard-Dubreuil:                   Hmmm. {Laughter} So, if I was single and without a wife and children, I might have a different answer to that question. For now, I think we stay like this. But I miss the US. Like I said, I lived in the US for a couple of years and I might come back at some point.

Stewart Walker:          Well, let’s leave it at that’s a good place to end. I think listeners will have enjoyed the insights and I think also we now all much better understand this coalescence of Microdrones and GeoCue and the capabilities that it will bring to the marketplace. I hope that we’ll be able to have mdGroup people in more podcasts in the future.

So, I also want to underline our gratitude to our sponsor, rapidlasso GmbH, the German software company founded by the late Dr. Martin Isenburg. We hope you will join us for forthcoming podcasts. We’ve already done preparatory work and we’re expecting some guests that we believe that you’ll want to hear.

Thank you very much, indeed, for listening. Good day.

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